Discussion:
Watching Dark Shadows thru 2nd time-story of Josette
(too old to reply)
kitekrazy
2009-09-02 02:46:52 UTC
Permalink
It seems the story of Josette is different until they do the episodes
where they introduce Angelique.
D***@webtv.net
2009-09-02 04:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitekrazy
It seems the story of Josette is different
until they do the episodes where they
introduce Angelique.
In which way? Do you mean the discussions about Josette in modern day
before the 1795 flashback, like when Barnabas was relating his version
of the night she died on Widows Hill to Vicki and Carolyn that one
stormy night? The differences in his story and what we saw happen
during the flashback could either Barnabas putting his own particular
spin on it, or, probably more likely, that the writers hadn't yet
completely firmed up the details of the story (perhaps not even figuring
it would be explored further beyond that brief mention).

If you mean just the interaction between Josette and Angelique when
they're first reunited at Collinwood, I think seeing them together,
giddy as schoolgirls, really reinforces the tragedy of the whole
situation - watching Angelique turn so bitterly against her childhood
friend, who innocently poured her heart out in friendship to her,
believing their bond was as true as ever. It makes me wonder just how
long Angelique had resented Josette - was it truly only after she won
Barnabas' heart, or had she secretly despised her for years for her life
of wealth and privilege while she herself remained a humble servant
girl, with Barnabas as merely the last straw, one more thing Josette
posessed that Angelique didn't...
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."

http://divamagenta.250free.com
llacook
2009-09-02 05:24:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitekrazy
It seems the story of Josette is different
until they do the episodes where they
introduce Angelique.
In which way?  Do you mean the discussions about Josette in modern day
before the 1795 flashback, like when Barnabas was relating his version
of the night she died on Widows Hill to Vicki and Carolyn that one
stormy night?  The differences in his story and what we saw happen
during the flashback could either Barnabas putting his own particular
spin on it, or, probably more likely, that the writers hadn't yet
completely firmed up the details of the story (perhaps not even figuring
it would be explored further beyond that brief mention).
If you mean just the interaction between Josette and Angelique when
they're first reunited at Collinwood, I think seeing them together,
giddy as schoolgirls, really reinforces the tragedy of the whole
situation - watching Angelique turn so bitterly against her childhood
friend, who innocently poured her heart out in friendship to her,
believing their bond was as true as ever.  It makes me wonder just how
long Angelique had resented Josette - was it truly only after she won
Barnabas' heart, or had she secretly despised her for years for her life
of wealth and privilege while she herself remained a humble servant
girl, with Barnabas as merely the last straw, one more thing Josette
posessed that Angelique didn't...
--
"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."
http://divamagenta.250free.com
Considering that, earlier in the series, Dr. Hoffman is referred to as
male, I would imagine that these are the first tracings of the writers
toward the story of Josette and Barnabas--that they hadn't firmed up
the details, as of yet.

In a way it's fascinating to find these inconsistencies. A series with
as long a run as DS is chock full of them, and I find it charming. We
get to see the skeleton of a story develop long before the story
itself is played out.
D***@webtv.net
2009-09-02 06:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by llacook
In a way it's fascinating to find these
inconsistencies.
It may be laughable to look back on any soap or other recurring drama
and see how the writers deliberately choose to rewrite history from what
was prevously mentioned or shown, but sometimes it can make for a more
compelling storyline, or even make a certain story possible at all.

Luke and Laura, for example. As controversial as their beginnings were,
their legendary romance would have been hard to pull off without
glossing over the facts in those early days when their undeniable
chemistry made them a fan favorite. And in later years, when the
writers/producers decided to take the brave step of finally
acknowledging what truly happened that night at the disco, the scenes
between Luke and son Lucky, when he finally discovered the truth about
what his father had done to his mother, were heartwrenching.

My feeling is, if it's going to help make an even better storyline, then
it's OK to rewrite history as long as it's done in a plausible and
thoughtful way. What I *don't* like is when they take the easy way out
and cheat the audience with a lame stunt (Bobby Ewing in the shower, it
was all a dream...), or when they destroy a beloved character's, well,
character - revealing that they've done something horrible and
completely out of character, just for cheap shock value.
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."

http://divamagenta.250free.com
Anim8rFSK
2009-09-02 17:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@webtv.net
What I *don't* like is when they take the easy way out
and cheat the audience with a lame stunt (Bobby Ewing in the shower, it
was all a dream...)
Now, now. That was absolutely the right thing to do. They needed Duffy
back, and they needed him as Bobby, and they needed to undo that entire
dreadful season, and they needed a ratings stunt to get people to tune
in again. The alternative was to cancel the show.
--
Uncle Jack: "Will, you're invisible!"
Will: "Invisible? I can't be! I can touch myself!"
--actual dialog from third season LAND OF THE LOST
D***@webtv.net
2009-09-03 14:22:45 UTC
Permalink
LOL!
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."

http://divamagenta.250free.com
kitekrazy
2009-09-05 19:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@webtv.net
Post by kitekrazy
It seems the story of Josette is different
until they do the episodes where they
introduce Angelique.
In which way? Do you mean the discussions about Josette in modern day
before the 1795 flashback, like when Barnabas was relating his version
of the night she died on Widows Hill to Vicki and Carolyn that one
stormy night? The differences in his story and what we saw happen
during the flashback could either Barnabas putting his own particular
spin on it, or, probably more likely, that the writers hadn't yet
completely firmed up the details of the story (perhaps not even figuring
it would be explored further beyond that brief mention).
In the flashback, after Josette and Jeremiah are wed, Barnabas kills him
in a duel. Angelique puts a spell on them to marry.

In modern day, he speaks that Josette and Jeremiah were married for a
long time. I'm sure this is the story he tells Hoffman. So basically
this makes Barnabas more of an adulterer.
Post by D***@webtv.net
If you mean just the interaction between Josette and Angelique when
they're first reunited at Collinwood, I think seeing them together,
giddy as schoolgirls, really reinforces the tragedy of the whole
situation - watching Angelique turn so bitterly against her childhood
friend, who innocently poured her heart out in friendship to her,
believing their bond was as true as ever. It makes me wonder just how
long Angelique had resented Josette - was it truly only after she won
Barnabas' heart, or had she secretly despised her for years for her life
of wealth and privilege while she herself remained a humble servant
girl, with Barnabas as merely the last straw, one more thing Josette
posessed that Angelique didn't...
Graeme
2009-09-07 14:33:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitekrazy
In the flashback, after Josette and Jeremiah are wed, Barnabas kills him
in a duel. Angelique puts a spell on them to marry.
What's interesting is not how much they changed the backstory, but how
*quickly* they seemed to have done it.

It was on the night that Burke's plane crashed, only a few short
episodes before the 1795 Story began, that Barnabas told the original
version to Julia on Widow's Hill, about how he had never met Josette
until the day that he found himself with the unpleasant social
obligation of going to meet his middle-aged uncle Jeremiah's new
bride. About how he had loved her at first sight, but she had no
interest in him until many years had passed, and she began to realize
that she was still young but was married to a much older man. In all
the early tellings of the story, Josette died before Jeremiah did.

Then bammo, just a few weeks later, Jeremiah and Barnabas are the same
age, and Josette came to Collinwood, never having met Jeremiah, and
for the purpose of marrying Barnabas. It's most confusing when they
do it that way. The "Joshua Rewrote The Family History" schtick is
used to explain away a lot of inconsistencies, but that explanation
doesn't cut it when Barnabas himself is telling his own backstory.
It's possible that the writers were just flying by the seat of their
pants, but it's also possible that something happened that required a
major change in the storyline. If that's the case, then the most
likely thing would be the knowledge that they were about to lose
Anthony George. He had originally signed up for a 6 month contract,
which was going to expire a few weeks into 1795. The original plan
might have been to have Jeremiah in the story much longer, maybe
having him act as Vicki's defender during her trial. Then when they
knew that George was leaving, they wrote him out early, and created
the Peter Bradford character to fill the gap. (Some of this is
speculation, but it would explain why they changed the story so much
so quickly).
D***@webtv.net
2009-09-07 15:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Barnabas' story could probably be explained in a few different ways:

1. Simple pride. He didn't want to come off as the jilted suitor, so
he placed Jeremiah into that role instead. Or maybe he didn't want to
be pitied as the victim.

2. Family loyalty. OTOH, perhaps he didn't want Jeremiah's name
tarnished, so he made himself out to be the betrayer.

3. Family secrets. He may have changed the story around just enough to
give it a little less melodramatic intrigue, to keep people from asking
too many follow-up questions (or snooping around on their own) and
uncovering more of the Collins family secret history than he wanted
revealed.

4. Pain. The horrible loss and grief he and his family suffered might
have just made it too painful for him to relate the story accurately and
completely, so he glossed it over and candy-coated it a bit to make it
bearable to even speak of.

I vote for #4.
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."

http://divamagenta.250free.com
Graeme
2009-09-07 16:45:31 UTC
Permalink
We can try to explain it away, but I don't think that was the writer's
intention; that Barnabas was lying to Julia about his backstory. If
we try to think what they WERE thinking, we can't explain it away as a
case of their being simply forgetful. It was so close to 1795 that
the story must have been on the drawing boards by then. It looks like
they had to make some big change at the last minute. It might have
been caused by Anthony George leaving, or it might have been for some
other reason. Like somebody realized that the story Barnabas told
took place over a period of years and they just couldn't leave Vicki
in the past that long.
kitekrazy
2009-09-12 23:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@webtv.net
1. Simple pride. He didn't want to come off as the jilted suitor, so
he placed Jeremiah into that role instead. Or maybe he didn't want to
be pitied as the victim.
2. Family loyalty. OTOH, perhaps he didn't want Jeremiah's name
tarnished, so he made himself out to be the betrayer.
3. Family secrets. He may have changed the story around just enough to
give it a little less melodramatic intrigue, to keep people from asking
too many follow-up questions (or snooping around on their own) and
uncovering more of the Collins family secret history than he wanted
revealed.
4. Pain. The horrible loss and grief he and his family suffered might
have just made it too painful for him to relate the story accurately and
completely, so he glossed it over and candy-coated it a bit to make it
bearable to even speak of.
I vote for #4.
Nope. They changed the story so people would become sympathetic to a
vampire. Isn't that what made the show?

It's not as bad as the Bobby Ewing in the shower.
Graeme
2009-09-14 22:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitekrazy
Nope. They changed the story so people would become sympathetic to a
vampire. Isn't that what made the show?
Other way around. They didn't do The 1795 Story to make Barnabas
popular. They did it because he was ALREADY so popular that a
storyline about his backstory was seen as a sure winner. He became a
hit character while he was still almost completely Evil. He had posh
manners, and showed a little contrition once in a while, so as happens
with many politicians, people forgave him. There's also the fact that
the whole storyline of his kidnapping Maggie to recreate his lost love
was a really romantic one, vaguely similar to the plot of Vertigo.
Johnny1a
2009-10-14 04:56:15 UTC
Permalink
2.  Family loyalty.  OTOH, perhaps he didn't want Jeremiah's name
tarnished, so he made himself out to be the betrayer.
I vote for #4.
While I'm sure the _real_ reason was the writers' changing their minds
'on the fly', option 3 actually _fits_ with what we saw in 1795.

If we assume that modern-day Barn, now fully aware of what _really_
went down with Josette and Jeremiah, changed the story to protect
Jeremiah's reputation, that actually makes sense, in light of Barn's
guilt and anger over Jeremiah's death. If he tells the actual story,
it makes Jeremiah _and_ Josette look really bad unless he also tells
of Angie, which would open up its own can of worms.
Will Dockery
2009-10-17 18:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitekrazy
It seems the story of Josette is different until they do the episodes
where they introduce Angelique.
Just came on this thread... should be some good reading, as the
Josette story is the centerpiece of the entire DS epic, I feel.

--
"Red Lipped Stranger & other stories" by Will Dockery:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
kitekrazy
2009-10-29 01:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by kitekrazy
It seems the story of Josette is different until they do the episodes
where they introduce Angelique.
Just came on this thread... should be some good reading, as the
Josette story is the centerpiece of the entire DS epic, I feel.
--
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
I've been watching these episodes again and I think it's the recreated
story of Josette that boosts the show into popularity.

Barnabas is a character we now have sympathy. How many shows are there
where you feel sorry for a vampire? Barnabas was an evil dude before
Victoria goes back in time.

Without those changes the show might have risked cancellation.

DS is just as addicting the 2nd time thru.
dbwindhorst
2009-10-29 12:14:02 UTC
Permalink
  I've been watching these episodes again and I think it's the recreated
story of Josette that boosts the show into popularity.
  Barnabas is a character we now have sympathy. How many shows are there
where you feel sorry for a vampire? Barnabas was an evil dude before
Victoria goes back in time.
  Without those changes the show might have risked cancellation.
  DS is just as addicting the 2nd time thru.
Just the other day I ran across mention of an obscure, little known
1945 film, "The Vampire's Ghost," that's been cited as an early, if
not the first, appearance of the sympathetic vampire trope:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038214/

Now I'd like to track this down to watch. It apparently airs on TCM
now and then, as they list the title as available from their service
that makes custom VHS copies of titles from their library:

http://turnerclassic.moviesunlimited.com/product.asp?sku=107165

dw
Anim8rFSK
2009-10-30 02:13:33 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by dbwindhorst
  I've been watching these episodes again and I think it's the recreated
story of Josette that boosts the show into popularity.
  Barnabas is a character we now have sympathy. How many shows are there
where you feel sorry for a vampire? Barnabas was an evil dude before
Victoria goes back in time.
  Without those changes the show might have risked cancellation.
  DS is just as addicting the 2nd time thru.
Just the other day I ran across mention of an obscure, little known
1945 film, "The Vampire's Ghost," that's been cited as an early, if
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038214/
Now I'd like to track this down to watch. It apparently airs on TCM
now and then, as they list the title as available from their service
http://turnerclassic.moviesunlimited.com/product.asp?sku=107165
dw
I had *no* idea they offered that.

Still no AROUND THE WORLD UNDER THE SEA though. :(
--
Stargate Universe SGU: It puts the "U" in "SUCKS"!
It's the show 'Defiling Gravity' would be if DG had more regulars,
fewer abortions, worse writers, and no budget for lighting.
Remember, you can't spell "disgust" without SGU!
CF
2009-10-30 15:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anim8rFSK
In article
Post by dbwindhorst
Post by kitekrazy
I've been watching these episodes again and I think it's the recreated
story of Josette that boosts the show into popularity.
Barnabas is a character we now have sympathy. How many shows are there
where you feel sorry for a vampire? Barnabas was an evil dude before
Victoria goes back in time.
Without those changes the show might have risked cancellation.
DS is just as addicting the 2nd time thru.
Just the other day I ran across mention of an obscure, little known
1945 film, "The Vampire's Ghost," that's been cited as an early, if
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038214/
Now I'd like to track this down to watch. It apparently airs on TCM
now and then, as they list the title as available from their service
http://turnerclassic.moviesunlimited.com/product.asp?sku=107165
dw
I had *no* idea they offered that.
Still no AROUND THE WORLD UNDER THE SEA though. :(
Also, no "Pied Piper" with Monty Wooley, a great, funny war movie with
heart!

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