If Barnabas was a vampire why didnt he bite Jossette?

[Joe]

Well at least the modern day Josette, Maggie. He could then control
her as he wished. But he didnt bite her. Why not? Dead they could
be together forever. He and his Josette. Not sure if she would still
be bound to him after she died but sure would while she was alive
after the bite. THe "oh I want her to come to me willingly" doesnt
make sense since he was a vampire and craved blood and she was the
nearest thing to him.

[D***@webtv.net]

It could very well be just like Angelique's copout excuse for why she
didn't just put a spell on Barnabas to make him love her - as if
threatening his loved ones *wasn't* coersion. Maybe Barnabas was in
similar denial that all of his brainwashing tactics to make Maggie love
him were fair game as long as he didn't cross the line of turning her
into a vampire.

Diva
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."

My Homepage:
http://www.geocities.com/sistermagenta


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[Joe]

Post by D***@webtv.net
It could very well be just like Angelique's copout excuse for why she
didn't just put a spell on Barnabas to make him love her - as if
threatening his loved ones *wasn't* coersion. Maybe Barnabas was in
similar denial that all of his brainwashing tactics to make Maggie love
him were fair game as long as he didn't cross the line of turning her
into a vampire.
Diva

Good answer. Not sure why Angelique wanted Barnabas so bad anyway.
She is gorgeous. He isnt much to look at. I guess she was ticked
because he played the oh I love you game when in fact he wanted
Josette. Which is another mystery. Barnabas is not the playboy type
ie sleep around. He had is so bad for Josette why pursue Angelique?
Even when apart it seems that if he wanted Josette that badly he could
have waited for her.

I know it is a writing thing with the biting of Maggie. I think it
might have made a better story if he pursued her that way but had to
overcome obstacles to do so.

[D***@webtv.net]

Post by Joe
Not sure why Angelique wanted
Barnabas so bad anyway. She is
gorgeous. He isnt much to look at.

Let's just say that there are quite a few of us who would strongly
disagree with that statement <g>

Post by Joe
I guess she was ticked because he
played the oh I love you game when in
fact he wanted Josette. Which is
another mystery. Barnabas is not the
playboy type ie sleep around. He had is
so bad for Josette why pursue
Angelique? Even when apart it seems
that if he wanted Josette that badly he
could have waited for her.

One theory I have is that in Martinique, Barnabas may have had stronger
feelings for Angelique than he had for Josette initially, but knowing
how impossible any real future could be with their vastly different
social standings, he chose her mistress instead. Over time, he probably
grew fonder of Josette, eventually truly falling in love with her.
While Angelique's arrival at Collinwood stirred up old memories, the
revelation of her true nature put the final nail in the coffin, so to
speak, of any love he'd had for her, until later on when she became a
victim of her own curse when she finally showed unselfish love, and died
in his arms as he finally professed his own love for her.

Post by Joe
I know it is a writing thing with the biting
of Maggie. I think it might have made a
better story if he pursued her that way
but had to overcome obstacles to do so.

I've always thought that Vicki would have made far more sense as a
Josette clone than Maggie. She was sweet and trusting and had a great
interest in the past, much more like Josette than Maggie was, who was
also kind and good-natured, but a bit more modern and savvy. Making
Vicki into Barnabas' new Josette was one plot change that I really liked
about the remake series,

Diva
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."

My Homepage:
http://www.geocities.com/sistermagenta


My Dark Shadows Page:
http://community.webtv.net/DivaMagenta/DivasDarkShadowsPage


My Sha Na Na Page:
http://www.geocities.com/sistermagenta/shanana.html

[Wind River]

Post by D***@webtv.net

Post by Joe
Not sure why Angelique wanted
Barnabas so bad anyway. She is
gorgeous. He isnt much to look at.

Let's just say that there are quite a few of us who would strongly
disagree with that statement <g>

Yes, I agree with your disagreement. :)

WR

[Joe]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:27:03 -0700, Wind River

Post by Wind River

Post by D***@webtv.net

Post by Joe
Not sure why Angelique wanted
Barnabas so bad anyway. She is
gorgeous. He isnt much to look at.

Let's just say that there are quite a few of us who would strongly
disagree with that statement <g>

Yes, I agree with your disagreement. :)
WR

Well that's what makes this group so interesting. We can peacefully
agree. What I meant was that he does not have the classic hollywood
looks that gets one on the cover of magazines as a sex symbol. Yet he
may be a symbol because of his popularity not tht he is a "looker".
Immensely popular. But the looks? Naw. Well liked. Yes. Extremely
so.

[Joe]

Post by D***@webtv.net

Post by Joe
Not sure why Angelique wanted
Barnabas so bad anyway. She is
gorgeous. He isnt much to look at.

Let's just say that there are quite a few of us who would strongly
disagree with that statement <g>

Post by Joe
I guess she was ticked because he
played the oh I love you game when in
fact he wanted Josette. Which is
another mystery. Barnabas is not the
playboy type ie sleep around. He had is
so bad for Josette why pursue
Angelique? Even when apart it seems
that if he wanted Josette that badly he
could have waited for her.

One theory I have is that in Martinique, Barnabas may have had stronger
feelings for Angelique than he had for Josette initially, but knowing
how impossible any real future could be with their vastly different
social standings, he chose her mistress instead. Over time, he probably
grew fonder of Josette, eventually truly falling in love with her.
While Angelique's arrival at Collinwood stirred up old memories, the
revelation of her true nature put the final nail in the coffin, so to
speak, of any love he'd had for her, until later on when she became a
victim of her own curse when she finally showed unselfish love, and died
in his arms as he finally professed his own love for her.

Post by Joe
I know it is a writing thing with the biting
of Maggie. I think it might have made a
better story if he pursued her that way
but had to overcome obstacles to do so.

I've always thought that Vicki would have made far more sense as a
Josette clone than Maggie. She was sweet and trusting and had a great
interest in the past, much more like Josette than Maggie was, who was
also kind and good-natured, but a bit more modern and savvy. Making
Vicki into Barnabas' new Josette was one plot change that I really liked
about the remake series,
Diva

Yes I agree with most of what you are saying except for the looks
part. Yes beuaty is in the eye of the beholder and yes I can see that
many in this group and outside this group like his looks. See other
posts for details.

When he became a vampire I would think that we would just make a
beeline for Jossette and nobody else. He had blood lust that had to
be satisfied. Dont see how he could resist bitin her and Maggie in the
future. That coming to me willing didnt make a whole lot of sense in
light of the fact that he had to have blood and couldnt resist.

[D***@webtv.net]

Post by Joe
When he became a vampire I would
think that we would just make a beeline
for Jossette and nobody else. He had
blood lust that had to be satisfied. Dont
see how he could resist bitin her and
Maggie in the future. That coming to me
willing didnt make a whole lot of sense
in light of the fact that he had to have
blood and couldnt resist.

IMHO, it was probably that, even in the desperate position he found
himself in when he emerged from the coffin after all those centuries,
his basic decency and humanity were still intact. He couldn't bring
himself to harm someone he cared about. Even after attacking Ruby, who
was nothing more to him than a common streetwalker, he was full of
remorse and regret. I can't even imagine the unbearable grief he would
feel to harm someone he knew and loved.

I wonder if, even if he had gotten to Widow's Hill before Angelique had
frightened Josette into her fatal fall or jump (always a debatable
point), he really would have gone through with his plans to make her his
eternal vampire bride.

Diva
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."

My Homepage:
http://www.geocities.com/sistermagenta


My Dark Shadows Page:
http://community.webtv.net/DivaMagenta/DivasDarkShadowsPage


My Sha Na Na Page:
http://www.geocities.com/sistermagenta/shanana.html

[Joe]

Post by D***@webtv.net

Post by Joe
When he became a vampire I would
think that we would just make a beeline
for Jossette and nobody else. He had
blood lust that had to be satisfied. Dont
see how he could resist bitin her and
Maggie in the future. That coming to me
willing didnt make a whole lot of sense
in light of the fact that he had to have
blood and couldnt resist.

IMHO, it was probably that, even in the desperate position he found
himself in when he emerged from the coffin after all those centuries,
his basic decency and humanity were still intact. He couldn't bring
himself to harm someone he cared about. Even after attacking Ruby, who
was nothing more to him than a common streetwalker, he was full of
remorse and regret. I can't even imagine the unbearable grief he would
feel to harm someone he knew and loved.
I wonder if, even if he had gotten to Widow's Hill before Angelique had
frightened Josette into her fatal fall or jump (always a debatable
point), he really would have gone through with his plans to make her his
eternal vampire bride.
Diva

That's the point. I dont think he could help but make her is eternal
bride. Why would he do otherwise knowing that she would grow old and
he wouldnt. The idea, I think, was to spend eternity together. I bet
his lust would have taken over at a later date if not at widow's hill.

[Johnny1a]

Post by D***@webtv.net

Post by Joe
When he became a vampire I would
think that we would just make a beeline
for Jossette and nobody else. He had
blood lust that had to be satisfied. Dont
see how he could resist bitin her and
Maggie in the future. That coming to me
willing didnt make a whole lot of sense
in light of the fact that he had to have
blood and couldnt resist.

IMHO, it was probably that, even in the desperate position he found
himself in when he emerged from the coffin after all those centuries,
his basic decency and humanity were still intact.  He couldn't bring
himself to harm someone he cared about.  Even after attacking Ruby, who
was nothing more to him than a common streetwalker, he was full of
remorse and regret.  I can't even imagine the unbearable grief he would
feel to harm someone he knew and loved.  
Diva

I actually think there's something to this. Barn is far from a saint,
but he does have a conscience (the murder of Carl being the really
nastiest exception to the general rule about this), but I think Barn
emerged from the coffin more than a little _nuts_. The human
gradually overcame the monster as the sequence of events unfolded,
culminating in the victory of Barn over the vampire when he balked at
Dr. Lang's plan for Jeff Clark. His sanity was coming back.

Everything Barn did to Maggie was _reversible_. Making her a vampire
would not be (as far as he knew at that point).

[Johnny1a]

Post by D***@webtv.net

Post by Joe
I guess she was ticked because he
played the oh I love you game when in
fact he wanted Josette. Which is
another mystery. Barnabas is not the
playboy type ie sleep around. He had is
so bad for Josette why pursue
Angelique? Even when apart it seems
that if he wanted Josette that badly he
could have waited for her.

One theory I have is that in Martinique, Barnabas may have had stronger
feelings for Angelique than he had for Josette initially, but knowing
how impossible any real future could be with their vastly different
social standings, he chose her mistress instead.

I don't think it was quite that way, or rather, my impression has
always been that it was both better and worse than that. I agree he
probably met Angelique first, and I agree that his feelings for her
were probably deeper than his feelings for Josette, or at least
_different_. (People throw the word 'love' around to mean a bunch of
very different things, actions, choices, and emotions). Angie is more
like Barn than Josette is, at heart. Josette may have been Young
Barn's _ideal_ woman, in the literal sense, the embodiment of what he
thought a woman should be, while he was attracted to Angie more in
terms of the reality. Not that I think Young Barn probably thought
all this out, he just knew he wanted them both.

And yes, I think the social barriers and even moreso, the thought of
his father's approval, played _big_ role in the choices he made.

Further, he was young, a long way from home, in a very different
culture and place, that's a ripe recipie for out-of-character
behavior. More than one normally faithful husband or wife, after
years of faithful marriage, has gone into a strange environment and
ended up doing something they hate themselves for when they get home.
Contrary to the ad saying, what happens in Vegas does _not_
necessarily stay in Vegas, and the same thing is true of Martinique.
Being in Martinique probably had a fantasy-like quality to a young and
naive person like Young Barn, far removed from 'reality' back in
Maine.

Post by D***@webtv.net
Over time, he probably
grew fonder of Josette, eventually truly falling in love with her.
While Angelique's arrival at Collinwood stirred up old memories,

What I said above about the difference between Martinique and Maine?
Barn led Angie on (both agree about that, though they've differed
substantially about the actual details of who did or did not promise
just what), thinking he wouldn't see her again, and then she showed up
in 'reality' back in Maine, with his father near at hand, the cold
Atlantic crashing against Widow's Hill, a long way from Martinique and
back in what Young Barn thought of as the Real World.

To his actual credit, he wasn't willing to take Angie on as a
mistress, even when she offered to settle for that, he thought it
unfair to Josette, himself, and Angie, and he was clearly conscience-
bothered by the mess he'd made in Martinique. I still think that at
heart, deep deep down, he'd like to have been with Angie, even then,
but his emotions were so tangled up by then that he loved them both.
Which is perfectly possible, and quite dangerous, even with ordinary
men and women.

As of the start of the 1795 sequence, I suspect Barn's secret idea of
Heaven would be to have both Josette and Angie all to himself on a
deserted island somewhere as far as possible from either Maine or
Martinique. Not admirable, but _very_ human.

Post by D***@webtv.net
I've always thought that Vicki would have made far more sense as a
Josette clone than Maggie.  She was sweet and trusting and had a great
interest in the past, much more like Josette than Maggie was, who was
also kind and good-natured, but a bit more modern and savvy.  
Diva

They never _quite_ made up their minds about whether Maggie actually
_was_ Josette or not. It's odd that Josette's ghost was still out and
about at the same time, superficially one would expect that if Maggie
was Josette reincarnated, the ghost ought to be 'within' Maggie.
Interesting question, because sometimes Maggie _did_ act as if there
was a substantial connection between herself and Josette. <shrug>

[Joe]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:49:15 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1a

Post by Johnny1a

Post by D***@webtv.net

Post by Joe
I guess she was ticked because he
played the oh I love you game when in
fact he wanted Josette. Which is
another mystery. Barnabas is not the
playboy type ie sleep around. He had is
so bad for Josette why pursue
Angelique? Even when apart it seems
that if he wanted Josette that badly he
could have waited for her.

One theory I have is that in Martinique, Barnabas may have had stronger
feelings for Angelique than he had for Josette initially, but knowing
how impossible any real future could be with their vastly different
social standings, he chose her mistress instead.

I don't think it was quite that way, or rather, my impression has
always been that it was both better and worse than that. I agree he
probably met Angelique first, and I agree that his feelings for her
were probably deeper than his feelings for Josette, or at least
_different_. (People throw the word 'love' around to mean a bunch of
very different things, actions, choices, and emotions). Angie is more
like Barn than Josette is, at heart. Josette may have been Young
Barn's _ideal_ woman, in the literal sense, the embodiment of what he
thought a woman should be, while he was attracted to Angie more in
terms of the reality. Not that I think Young Barn probably thought
all this out, he just knew he wanted them both.
And yes, I think the social barriers and even moreso, the thought of
his father's approval, played _big_ role in the choices he made.
Further, he was young, a long way from home, in a very different
culture and place, that's a ripe recipie for out-of-character
behavior. More than one normally faithful husband or wife, after
years of faithful marriage, has gone into a strange environment and
ended up doing something they hate themselves for when they get home.
Contrary to the ad saying, what happens in Vegas does _not_
necessarily stay in Vegas, and the same thing is true of Martinique.
Being in Martinique probably had a fantasy-like quality to a young and
naive person like Young Barn, far removed from 'reality' back in
Maine.

Post by D***@webtv.net
Over time, he probably
grew fonder of Josette, eventually truly falling in love with her.
While Angelique's arrival at Collinwood stirred up old memories,

What I said above about the difference between Martinique and Maine?
Barn led Angie on (both agree about that, though they've differed
substantially about the actual details of who did or did not promise
just what), thinking he wouldn't see her again, and then she showed up
in 'reality' back in Maine, with his father near at hand, the cold
Atlantic crashing against Widow's Hill, a long way from Martinique and
back in what Young Barn thought of as the Real World.
To his actual credit, he wasn't willing to take Angie on as a
mistress, even when she offered to settle for that, he thought it
unfair to Josette, himself, and Angie, and he was clearly conscience-
bothered by the mess he'd made in Martinique. I still think that at
heart, deep deep down, he'd like to have been with Angie, even then,
but his emotions were so tangled up by then that he loved them both.
Which is perfectly possible, and quite dangerous, even with ordinary
men and women.
As of the start of the 1795 sequence, I suspect Barn's secret idea of
Heaven would be to have both Josette and Angie all to himself on a
deserted island somewhere as far as possible from either Maine or
Martinique. Not admirable, but _very_ human.

Post by D***@webtv.net
I've always thought that Vicki would have made far more sense as a
Josette clone than Maggie.  She was sweet and trusting and had a great
interest in the past, much more like Josette than Maggie was, who was
also kind and good-natured, but a bit more modern and savvy.  
Diva

They never _quite_ made up their minds about whether Maggie actually
_was_ Josette or not. It's odd that Josette's ghost was still out and
about at the same time, superficially one would expect that if Maggie
was Josette reincarnated, the ghost ought to be 'within' Maggie.
Interesting question, because sometimes Maggie _did_ act as if there
was a substantial connection between herself and Josette. <shrug>

Wasnt Maine a part of Mass at that time? Barnabas had sex with
Angelique as a convenience. Obvious no love there. Jossette was the
love. Not Angie

[Jim Nason]

Post by Joe
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:49:15 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1a

Post by Johnny1a

Post by D***@webtv.net

Post by Joe
I guess she was ticked because he
played the oh I love you game when in
fact he wanted Josette. Which is
another mystery. Barnabas is not the
playboy type ie sleep around. He had is
so bad for Josette why pursue
Angelique? Even when apart it seems
that if he wanted Josette that badly he
could have waited for her.

One theory I have is that in Martinique, Barnabas may have had stronger
feelings for Angelique than he had for Josette initially, but knowing
how impossible any real future could be with their vastly different
social standings, he chose her mistress instead.

I don't think it was quite that way, or rather, my impression has
always been that it was both better and worse than that. I agree he
probably met Angelique first, and I agree that his feelings for her
were probably deeper than his feelings for Josette, or at least
_different_. (People throw the word 'love' around to mean a bunch of
very different things, actions, choices, and emotions). Angie is more
like Barn than Josette is, at heart. Josette may have been Young
Barn's _ideal_ woman, in the literal sense, the embodiment of what he
thought a woman should be, while he was attracted to Angie more in
terms of the reality. Not that I think Young Barn probably thought
all this out, he just knew he wanted them both.
And yes, I think the social barriers and even moreso, the thought of
his father's approval, played _big_ role in the choices he made.
Further, he was young, a long way from home, in a very different
culture and place, that's a ripe recipie for out-of-character
behavior. More than one normally faithful husband or wife, after
years of faithful marriage, has gone into a strange environment and
ended up doing something they hate themselves for when they get home.
Contrary to the ad saying, what happens in Vegas does _not_
necessarily stay in Vegas, and the same thing is true of Martinique.
Being in Martinique probably had a fantasy-like quality to a young and
naive person like Young Barn, far removed from 'reality' back in
Maine.

Post by D***@webtv.net
Over time, he probably
grew fonder of Josette, eventually truly falling in love with her.
While Angelique's arrival at Collinwood stirred up old memories,

What I said above about the difference between Martinique and Maine?
Barn led Angie on (both agree about that, though they've differed
substantially about the actual details of who did or did not promise
just what), thinking he wouldn't see her again, and then she showed up
in 'reality' back in Maine, with his father near at hand, the cold
Atlantic crashing against Widow's Hill, a long way from Martinique and
back in what Young Barn thought of as the Real World.
To his actual credit, he wasn't willing to take Angie on as a
mistress, even when she offered to settle for that, he thought it
unfair to Josette, himself, and Angie, and he was clearly conscience-
bothered by the mess he'd made in Martinique. I still think that at
heart, deep deep down, he'd like to have been with Angie, even then,
but his emotions were so tangled up by then that he loved them both.
Which is perfectly possible, and quite dangerous, even with ordinary
men and women.
As of the start of the 1795 sequence, I suspect Barn's secret idea of
Heaven would be to have both Josette and Angie all to himself on a
deserted island somewhere as far as possible from either Maine or
Martinique. Not admirable, but _very_ human.

Post by D***@webtv.net
I've always thought that Vicki would have made far more sense as a
Josette clone than Maggie. She was sweet and trusting and had a great
interest in the past, much more like Josette than Maggie was, who was
also kind and good-natured, but a bit more modern and savvy.
Diva

They never _quite_ made up their minds about whether Maggie actually
_was_ Josette or not. It's odd that Josette's ghost was still out and
about at the same time, superficially one would expect that if Maggie
was Josette reincarnated, the ghost ought to be 'within' Maggie.
Interesting question, because sometimes Maggie _did_ act as if there
was a substantial connection between herself and Josette. <shrug>

Wasnt Maine a part of Mass at that time? Barnabas had sex with
Angelique as a convenience. Obvious no love there. Jossette was the
love. Not Angie

Yes, Maine was part of Massachusetts until 1820, when it was admitted as a
State as part of the Missouri Compromise: Maine as a free state; Missouri as
a slave state, to preserve the balance.

Angelique obviously lost out to Josette in terms of Barnabas, a plot twist
that lays the foundation for most of the series. It works because both of
the women are beautiful and desirable in whatever century we see them.

Jim Nason

[Johnny1a]

Post by Joe
Barnabas had sex with
Angelique as a convenience.  Obvious no love there.  Jossette was the
love. Not Angie- Hide quoted text -

The evidence does not support that contention.

[Joe]

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1a

Post by Johnny1a

Post by Joe
Barnabas had sex with
Angelique as a convenience.  Obvious no love there.  Jossette was the
love. Not Angie- Hide quoted text -

The evidence does not support that contention.

What evidence? He dumped Angelique as soon as Jossette showed up. He
longed for Josette both in 1795 and 1967. He didnt try to get Maggie
to act as Angelique. He tried to get her to be Josette, the love of
his life. So what evidence is there that says he love Angelique
instead of Josette? Or are you just trying to keep this thread going?
Not many topics on in this group these days. I love discussing Dark
Shadows.

[Johnny1a]

Post by Joe
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1a

Post by Johnny1a

Post by Joe
Barnabas had sex with
Angelique as a convenience.  Obvious no love there.  Jossette was the
love. Not Angie- Hide quoted text -

The evidence does not support that contention.

What evidence?  He dumped Angelique as soon as Jossette showed up.  

He didn't expect Angelique to show up at all. He chose Josette, and I
have no doubt his feelings for her were real _also_. However, as you

Post by Joe
He
longed for Josette both in 1795 and 1967.  He didnt try to get Maggie
to act as Angelique. He tried to get her to be Josette, the love of
his life.  

It would be more honest to call Josette the 'obession of his life'.
His love for Josette is highly idealized, no woman ever was, is, or
ever could be as perfect as the idealized Josette that appeared in
Barn's mind after his vampirization. His feelings for Angelique are
more based on a real girl, or at least on the human part of her.

What he tried to do with Maggie was _not_ an act of love. Trying to
reshape one person into another isn't love, it's obsession and its
fundamentally a self-centered and selfish thing to do. The only real
defense one can offer for Barn's actions there is that he was
literally insane at the time.

Post by Joe
So what evidence is there that says he love Angelique
instead of Josette?  

For one thing, he was clearly torn between then after they both showed
up in 1795. If _all_ Angelique was to him was one-night stand, that
wouldn't have been a problem for him, even if he felt guilty about it,
he would not have been struggling with his attraction to them both.
Later, when she got him to marry her by 'curing' his sister, Barn
showed every sign of being more-or-less content with his situation, he
didn't converting the Old House into a Temple to the Goddess Josette
until _after_ he learned the truth about Angelique, which was roughly
when the obsession began to emerge and also when he wanted to annoy
Angie. (It worked.)

When he was ready to poison Angie, he hesitated, part of him _still_
didn't want to kill her, even knowing what he knew.

Later, in the 20th century, whenever Barn and Cassangie are together,
it's clear that he's not _entirely_ sorry that she's there. Part of
him hates her, part of him is flirting with her, and he doesn't even
seem to know it. Then later yet, at one point Nicholas Blair stripped
an errant Angie of her magic, leaving her _mortal_, like any other
woman. Barnabas had a gun in his hand, pointed at her, all he had to
do was squeeze the trigger and the game was over and he's won. _He
couldn't do it._

When Julia demanded to know why, the only answer he could come up with
was so lame that I'm sure she wasn't fooled.

As the show went on, the complexity of the Barn/Angie relationship
kept getting clearer, in contrast to the relative simplicity of the
idealization of Josette.

[D***@webtv.net]

In a way, Barnabas' struggle with his strong feelings for both very
different women - Josette and Angelique - paralelled the constant battle
he fought between his basic, decent humanity and the vampire's beastly
nature.

Diva
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."
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[Joe]

On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:43:32 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1a

Post by Johnny1a

Post by Joe
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:33:46 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1a

Post by Johnny1a

Post by Joe
Barnabas had sex with
Angelique as a convenience.  Obvious no love there.  Jossette was the
love. Not Angie- Hide quoted text -

The evidence does not support that contention.

What evidence?  He dumped Angelique as soon as Jossette showed up.  

He didn't expect Angelique to show up at all. He chose Josette, and I
have no doubt his feelings for her were real _also_. However, as you

Post by Joe
He
longed for Josette both in 1795 and 1967.  He didnt try to get Maggie
to act as Angelique. He tried to get her to be Josette, the love of
his life.  

It would be more honest to call Josette the 'obession of his life'.
His love for Josette is highly idealized, no woman ever was, is, or
ever could be as perfect as the idealized Josette that appeared in
Barn's mind after his vampirization. His feelings for Angelique are
more based on a real girl, or at least on the human part of her.
What he tried to do with Maggie was _not_ an act of love. Trying to
reshape one person into another isn't love, it's obsession and its
fundamentally a self-centered and selfish thing to do. The only real
defense one can offer for Barn's actions there is that he was
literally insane at the time.

Post by Joe
So what evidence is there that says he love Angelique
instead of Josette?  

For one thing, he was clearly torn between then after they both showed
up in 1795. If _all_ Angelique was to him was one-night stand, that
wouldn't have been a problem for him, even if he felt guilty about it,
he would not have been struggling with his attraction to them both.
Later, when she got him to marry her by 'curing' his sister, Barn
showed every sign of being more-or-less content with his situation, he
didn't converting the Old House into a Temple to the Goddess Josette
until _after_ he learned the truth about Angelique, which was roughly
when the obsession began to emerge and also when he wanted to annoy
Angie. (It worked.)
When he was ready to poison Angie, he hesitated, part of him _still_
didn't want to kill her, even knowing what he knew.
Later, in the 20th century, whenever Barn and Cassangie are together,
it's clear that he's not _entirely_ sorry that she's there. Part of
him hates her, part of him is flirting with her, and he doesn't even
seem to know it. Then later yet, at one point Nicholas Blair stripped
an errant Angie of her magic, leaving her _mortal_, like any other
woman. Barnabas had a gun in his hand, pointed at her, all he had to
do was squeeze the trigger and the game was over and he's won. _He
couldn't do it._
When Julia demanded to know why, the only answer he could come up with
was so lame that I'm sure she wasn't fooled.
As the show went on, the complexity of the Barn/Angie relationship
kept getting clearer, in contrast to the relative simplicity of the
idealization of Josette.

Geez one does not need to be blackmailed into marriage with someone
they love. If he loved Angelique he would have done it without that
sort or evil push He dont recall he was content with that situation
at all. From what I can remember he still wanted Josette badly. Very
badly but could not say anything regarding his situation. I dont and
didnt see any love for Angelique in the 1795 storyline. None at all.

[D***@webtv.net]

I don't think that Barnabas was thrilled to marry Angelique, but he
didn't find it absolutely distasteful at first either because a) he was
vulnerable from feeing utterly betrayed by Josette, b) he genunely did
care for Angelique, c) her "blackmail" was well sugar-coated as an
earnest request, and later when she had done her part (saving Sarah),
she played on his sense of honor so he would keep his word as a
gentleman, and d) he didn't know what evil things she had done until
later.

At that point, she probably just seemed like a servant girl whose lack
of worldly sophistication led her to wear her heart on her sleeve a
little too obviously, but who was well-meaning and sincere in her
affections. And, to be honest, he probably enjoyed being so unabashedly
desired by this beautiful woman.

Diva
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."
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[Johnny1a]

Post by D***@webtv.net
I don't think that Barnabas was thrilled to marry Angelique, but he
didn't find it absolutely distasteful at first either because a) he was
vulnerable from feeing utterly betrayed by Josette, b) he genunely did
care for Angelique, c) her "blackmail" was well sugar-coated as an
earnest request, and later when she had done her part (saving Sarah),
she played on his sense of honor so he would keep his word as a
gentleman, and d) he didn't know what evil things she had done until
later.  

The marriage was partly reluctant and partly a relief, I think. At
least, from Barn's POV, he isn't divided between them anymore, and
being married to Angie leaves Josette free to move on. In his mind,
this was probably the least bad outcome possible after the
inexplicable behavior of Josette and Jeremiah and what had followed.

And once he was _there_, I suspect he was surprised at just how
_comfortable_ he was being married to Angie. The trouble was that
she'd already gone too far, Jeremiah was awake, and she just had to
cast _one more spell_...

Post by D***@webtv.net
At that point, she probably just seemed like a servant girl whose lack
of worldly sophistication led her to wear her heart on her sleeve a
little too obviously, but who was well-meaning and sincere in her
affections.  And, to be honest, he probably enjoyed being so unabashedly
desired by this beautiful woman.

What man would not be? Especially a young and inexperienced one like
YoungBarn? Angie (and Josette) are both beyond beautiful...

[D***@webtv.net]

I would almost bet that, if Angelique's secrets had not come to light,
and Josette had returned home to Martinique and was out of the picture,
she probably would have put aside her powers and just settled into
married life with Barnabas, and none of the tragedies would have
befallen the Collins family.

Because really, the only thing she ever wanted was Barnabas, and
everything she did, misguided as it was, was to win his love. She
didn't want wealth (proven when she was willing to go with Barnabas
after he'd been disowned) or the power to rule the world, she only
wanted him.

Of course, if things had happened that way, it wouldn't be the same DS
that we know and love!

Diva
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."
My Homepage:
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[Johnny1a]

Post by D***@webtv.net
I would almost bet that, if Angelique's secrets had not come to light,
and Josette had returned home to Martinique and was out of the picture,
she probably would have put aside her powers and just settled into
married life with Barnabas, and none of the tragedies would have
befallen the Collins family.

That I don't believe for a second. Oh, it would have been
_different_, and maybe not as bad as what did happen, but maybe it
would have turned out worse, too. Angie was an addict, and having
'succeeded' in acheiving her aims using dark magic would only make it
worse.

Post by D***@webtv.net
Because really, the only thing she ever wanted was Barnabas, and
everything she did, misguided as it was, was to win his love.  She
didn't want wealth (proven when she was willing to go with Barnabas
after he'd been disowned) or the power to rule the world, she only
wanted him.

What happens the first time they have a fight? A really bad one, I
mean?

What if Angie just _siuspects_ another woman might have designs on her
husband (does it even matter if it's true?)

There's no such as as happily ever after, so sooner or later Life
Would Happen to the Collineses. The question is what would Angie,
who's addicted to her magic and already landed Barn by using it, do?
A child gtes sick. The money gets tight. Barn and Angie just go
through a rough patch when they can't stand each other for a while.
It could be anything, and Angie's first instinct would always be to
cast just One More Spell..

And that assumes they're problems are just the stuff of everyday
life. Diabolos might take an interest, too.

[Joe]

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 17:46:31 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1a

Post by Johnny1a

Post by D***@webtv.net
I would almost bet that, if Angelique's secrets had not come to light,
and Josette had returned home to Martinique and was out of the picture,
she probably would have put aside her powers and just settled into
married life with Barnabas, and none of the tragedies would have
befallen the Collins family.

That I don't believe for a second. Oh, it would have been
_different_, and maybe not as bad as what did happen, but maybe it
would have turned out worse, too. Angie was an addict, and having
'succeeded' in acheiving her aims using dark magic would only make it
worse.

Post by D***@webtv.net
Because really, the only thing she ever wanted was Barnabas, and
everything she did, misguided as it was, was to win his love.  She
didn't want wealth (proven when she was willing to go with Barnabas
after he'd been disowned) or the power to rule the world, she only
wanted him.

What happens the first time they have a fight? A really bad one, I
mean?
What if Angie just _siuspects_ another woman might have designs on her
husband (does it even matter if it's true?)
There's no such as as happily ever after, so sooner or later Life
Would Happen to the Collineses. The question is what would Angie,
who's addicted to her magic and already landed Barn by using it, do?
A child gtes sick. The money gets tight. Barn and Angie just go
through a rough patch when they can't stand each other for a while.
It could be anything, and Angie's first instinct would always be to
cast just One More Spell..
And that assumes they're problems are just the stuff of everyday
life. Diabolos might take an interest, too.

I agree with everything you said. My thoughts exactly

[Joe]

Post by D***@webtv.net
I would almost bet that, if Angelique's secrets had not come to light,
and Josette had returned home to Martinique and was out of the picture,
she probably would have put aside her powers and just settled into
married life with Barnabas, and none of the tragedies would have
befallen the Collins family.
Because really, the only thing she ever wanted was Barnabas, and
everything she did, misguided as it was, was to win his love. She
didn't want wealth (proven when she was willing to go with Barnabas
after he'd been disowned) or the power to rule the world, she only
wanted him.
Of course, if things had happened that way, it wouldn't be the same DS
that we know and love!
Diva

There is a saying Leopards cant change their spots. Angelique was a
witch for a reason. And none of those reasons are good. She had
powers to get what she wanted. The first time things went wrong she
would have used those powers to get what she wanted. She was evil.
Some might say evil in a misguided way but evil none the less.

[Jim Heckman]

On 15-Mar-2009, Johnny1a <***@hotmail.com>
wrote in message

Post by Johnny1a
I don't think it was quite that way, or rather, my impression has
always been that it was both better and worse than that. I agree he
probably met Angelique first,

Why do you think that? Given their social stations, I don't see why
Barnabas would have met Angelique more than a few minutes at most
before he met Josette, and then only if she happened to answer the
door the first time he came to call on the family.

Post by Johnny1a
and I agree that his feelings for her
were probably deeper than his feelings for Josette, or at least
_different_. [...]

[Joe]

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 03:52:27 GMT, "Jim Heckman"

Post by Jim Heckman
wrote in message

Post by Johnny1a
I don't think it was quite that way, or rather, my impression has
always been that it was both better and worse than that. I agree he
probably met Angelique first,

Why do you think that? Given their social stations, I don't see why
Barnabas would have met Angelique more than a few minutes at most
before he met Josette, and then only if she happened to answer the
door the first time he came to call on the family.

Post by Johnny1a
and I agree that his feelings for her
were probably deeper than his feelings for Josette, or at least
_different_. [...]

He was just using Angelique as a convenience. He knew he had no real
feelings for her. Just wanted to satisfy a sexual urge while waiting
for his true love.

So why did he profess love for Angelique as she lay dying? Because
Josette wasnt there and he didnt want to insult her as she was dying.
He had learned to show a little compassion.

[Johnny1a]

Post by Joe
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 03:52:27 GMT, "Jim Heckman"

Post by Jim Heckman
wrote in message

Post by Johnny1a
I don't think it was quite that way, or rather, my impression has
always been that it was both better and worse than that.  I agree he
probably met Angelique first,

Why do you think that?  Given their social stations, I don't see why
Barnabas would have met Angelique more than a few minutes at most
before he met Josette, and then only if she happened to answer the
door the first time he came to call on the family.

Post by Johnny1a
and I agree that his feelings for her
were probably deeper than his feelings for Josette, or at least
_different_. [...]

He was just using Angelique as a convenience. He knew he had no real
feelings for her. Just wanted to satisfy a sexual urge while waiting
for his true love.

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. It doesn't explain much of any of his
behavior after she arrived in Maine or in the 20th century.

Post by Joe
So why did he profess love for Angelique as she lay dying? Because
Josette wasnt there and he didnt want to insult her as she was dying.
He had learned to show a little compassion.

To the woman who murdered his sister, indirectly caused his mother's
death, was responsible for his uncle's death, cursed Liz with a
paralyzing fear of being buried alive, cursed him with undeath, cursed
David with silence, enslaved Ben, messed with Josette's mind,
destroyed Sam's eyesight, killed Lang, repeaedly tried to arrange
Vickie's death, etc, etc?!

Sorry, 'compassion' won't cut it.

[D***@webtv.net]

I believe that Barnabas did indeed love Angelique. It was after she
selflessly sacrificed herself that Barnabas saw that she truly had
changed and regretted her past actions, not just grandstanding to earn
his favor or some other benefit for herself. Besides, surely Barnabas
understood the need for forgiveness.

Unfortunately for Angelique, I believe that unselfish act brought her
own curse upon her head. When she finally demonstrated genuine love and
unselfishness, leading Barnabas to respond in kind, she reaped the
bitter harvest of what she sowed in 1795.

Diva
--
DivaMagenta @}{~~>~~~>~~~>~~~~~

"Religion is man's futile attempt to reach out to God, trying to earn
His favor. Christianity is the good news that God has reached out in
love to us through His Son, because He knows that our arms are not long
enough..."
My Homepage:
http://www.geocities.com/sistermagenta

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http://www.geocities.com/sistermagenta/shanana.html

[Joe]

Post by D***@webtv.net
I believe that Barnabas did indeed love Angelique. It was after she
selflessly sacrificed herself that Barnabas saw that she truly had
changed and regretted her past actions, not just grandstanding to earn
his favor or some other benefit for herself. Besides, surely Barnabas
understood the need for forgiveness.
Unfortunately for Angelique, I believe that unselfish act brought her
own curse upon her head. When she finally demonstrated genuine love and
unselfishness, leading Barnabas to respond in kind, she reaped the
bitter harvest of what she sowed in 1795.
Diva

He could have indeed had feeling for her towards the end. Total irony
that she fell victim to her own curse. That is too funny.

[s***@gmail.com]

Well at least the modern day Josette, Maggie.  He could then control
her as he wished.  But he didnt bite her.  Why not?  Dead they could
be together forever. He and his Josette.  Not sure if she would still
be bound to him after she died but sure would while she was alive
after the bite.  THe "oh I want her to come to me willingly" doesnt
make sense since he was a vampire and craved blood and she was the
nearest thing to him.

But he did bite Maggie(drained her enough to give her anemia and weird
blood cells!) and there were episodes right afterward after where she
seemed to fancy him. After the near fatal draining and kidnapping, it
was the ghost of Sarah that snapped her out of her trance-like state.

[Joe]

Post by s***@gmail.com

Well at least the modern day Josette, Maggie.  He could then control
her as he wished.  But he didnt bite her.  Why not?  Dead they could
be together forever. He and his Josette.  Not sure if she would still
be bound to him after she died but sure would while she was alive
after the bite.  THe "oh I want her to come to me willingly" doesnt
make sense since he was a vampire and craved blood and she was the
nearest thing to him.

But he did bite Maggie(drained her enough to give her anemia and weird
blood cells!) and there were episodes right afterward after where she
seemed to fancy him. After the near fatal draining and kidnapping, it
was the ghost of Sarah that snapped her out of her trance-like state.

Oh yeah. Forgot about that. Has been many years since I have seen the
show. Doesnt look like it will be on TV anywhere in the near future

[Ubiquitous]

Post by Joe
Well at least the modern day Josette, Maggie. He could then control
her as he wished. But he didnt bite her. Why not? Dead they could
be together forever. He and his Josette. Not sure if she would still
be bound to him after she died but sure would while she was alive
after the bite. THe "oh I want her to come to me willingly" doesnt
make sense since he was a vampire and craved blood and she was the
nearest thing to him.

Ummm, he did, actually.

[Anim8rFSK]

Post by Ubiquitous

Post by Joe
Well at least the modern day Josette, Maggie. He could then control
her as he wished. But he didnt bite her. Why not? Dead they could
be together forever. He and his Josette. Not sure if she would still
be bound to him after she died but sure would while she was alive
after the bite. THe "oh I want her to come to me willingly" doesnt
make sense since he was a vampire and craved blood and she was the
nearest thing to him.

Ummm, he did, actually.

Heck, *I* would have bitten KLS. Any time, any place!